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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
84
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Posted - 2011.12.22 16:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
I had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine yesterday about the prevalence of botting and why it is not combated more actively. I am now aware that some alliances have "don't report bots" policies for a multitude of reasons, including avoiding drama (due to trigger-happy white knight types who report everything in sight, or due to actual abuse), padding alliance wallet, and "because it's not our fault CCP can't enforce its EULA".
This has left me rather disappointed, but I'm curious: how widespread is this practice? With all the bot hate everywhere, I would think there exist alliances with "zero tolerance" bot policies -- towards their own members, allies, and enemies. Do they exist or am I just living in cuckoo-land?
(No I am not looking for recruitment; I am simply asking a question) |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
84
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Posted - 2011.12.22 16:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Topaz Sky wrote:CCP devs are apparently in the goons and goons have an open goon-botting tolerance policy, so clearly not. Nice tinfoil hat. Goonswarm was one of the unnamed alliances I mentioned, which I believe (according to my sources) has a "don't report bots" policy. It's not "bots are okay" but it's effectively that anyway. The reason that is put in place is because of idiots who would go through friendly systems reporting every single ratter for botting, which causes unnecessary drama and headaches for everyone. Even worse if those friendly systems are in an ally's space, not the own alliance's space.
I mean, it's understandable, but sort of sad. And that doesn't answer my question either way. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
84
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Posted - 2011.12.22 16:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:Officially most alliances are probably anti-bot, kind of social suicide otherwise, so any answer you get here on an open forum will be irrelevant, tainted, flawed, outright lies.
CCP is getting better at it but they need to accept their limitations and involve the employers (corps/alliances) in the equation: Make employers partially accountable for employee behaviour and introduce some helpful tools (such as activity monitors) for corp/alliance admins to use to ferret out the culprits.
I'm not expecting any straightforward and true answers. Everything on these forums is to be taken with a sea-ful of salt. "Anti-bot" has multiple meanings though. In some alliances, you will be derided, fined, or booted if you're found botting, but you'll never be reported. Most alliances probably don't want you to report blue bots. Some may even encourage reporting all red ratters you find as bots.
I'm wondering if there's any alliance that actually has a policy to report any and all bots.
There are some people who wouldn't turn their brother or best friend in for a crime, but would gladly turn in a stranger. Then there's some people who would. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
84
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Posted - 2011.12.22 16:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cass Lie wrote:Might be PL would kick any botting char that got caught and blown. Not because it is ~immoral~, but because he is stupid enough to do it on a main and not on an alt in a renter alliance in some god-forgotten null system.
And on a more serious note, the answer is yes, at least one such alliance exists.
Report him too?
If PL does this, they may have regained the respect I lost for them when they hotdropped my Slicer with an Aeon and a Nyx. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
84
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 17:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Xolve wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:If PL does this, they may have regained the respect I lost for them when they hotdropped my Slicer with an Aeon and a Nyx. How in the great blue **** did your slicer get tackled by 2 supers?
Didn't get tackled. I got out, of course. Still, it was one of the dumbest things I have ever seen.
My Rifter did get pointed and killed by a Thanatos once, but that's because I was basically asking for it. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
84
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 17:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
J Kunjeh wrote:It's pretty simple: any Alliance that takes a strong stand against botting will lose the 0.0 game as a result and no longer be a viable Alliance in Eve. It's counterproductive for them to report on their own ISK making activities, so why would they? No, it's CCP that needs to step up their efforts against bots...but wait, then they'll lose real life sub dollars, so why would they do that?? A never ending problem...too many people are on the take.
CCP had a massive bot-banning effort in the past, in which they presumedly lost a ton of paying subscribers. I'm not too concerned about it being a conflict of interest for them.
It shouldn't be a conflict of interest for 0.0 alliances, though. I don't know how CCP can solve that. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
84
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 17:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Xolve wrote: And the 'No Bot Reporting' rule originated in TEST when a bunch of mouthbreathers were mad about the sanctum nerf and couldn't find an empty one to harvest interstellar ***-gold from. So they started reporting people who were honestly just ratting to get them a temp ban until an investigation was completed.
This is why we can't have nice things.
I hate people. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
86
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Posted - 2011.12.22 19:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Zero tolerance Alliance: Ivy League. But they hold no sov.
That's a start, but Ivy League would hardly be where the most lucrative botting would go on.
Zagam wrote:There are several that I know of that are pretty anti-bot in the CFC. I know for sure that Fatal Ascension is definitely anti-bot, and most of the other CFC alliances are also.
PS> Reading comprehension of this post is improved when tin foil hats are removed prior to reading.
Riddle me this: if a member of a certain alliance in CFC (any of them) noticed a bot who was a member of another CFC alliance, would they report him? Would they tell the corp CEO of the botter? Their own corp CEO? Would they just move on?
If the resulting action results in any less than a CCP investigation for botting, that is not an "anti-bot policy".
Edit: Reading this over it sounds anti-CFC and that's not what I'm going for. Apply the same questions to any coalition or group of players, and they are still valid. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
87
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Posted - 2011.12.22 20:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pawnee wrote:~ It's 2012 and the world is ending. ~
I don't know if you noticed this on your bot-hunting "affords" (note: it's spelled "effort"), but the bots are not gathered in any one single entity. There are bots in the Russian bloc, in CFC, in hisec, and where the sun don't shine. Money doesn't buy skill, though, so they aren't getting any combat "advantage", except maybe to alliance finances -- which advantages already don't matter since everyone bots.
The advantage they're getting is piles and piles of effort-free ISK -- spent on ships, PLEX, etc -- causing ISK to get devalued and inflation to be prevalent in Eve. That makes it hard for everyone to live.
Damn the EULA and all that crap. Want PLEX to be cheap again? Find and report a bot today. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
87
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Posted - 2011.12.22 20:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
I love the forums. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
87
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Posted - 2011.12.22 20:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Berendas wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:due to trigger-happy white knight types who report everything in sight... Disliking it when people cheat doesn't make you a 'white knight.' Thats something that bot users just call people who play by the rules so they can feel like they aren't actually cheating or ruining the game.
Yes, confirming I am disappointed about alliances allowing bot use because I'm a bot user myself. That's how everything works.
No, "white knight types" as I was referring to them are people who think they're the force of justice in the world and spot criminal behavior in everyone around them, overzealously causing mayhem and drama. Should I have instead said quixotic? |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
87
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Posted - 2011.12.22 20:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Berendas wrote:[quote=Petrus Blackshell]Disliking it when people cheat doesn't make you a 'white knight.' Thats something that bot users just call people who play by the rules so they can feel like they aren't actually cheating or ruining the game. The "white knights" are the idiots reporting people who aren't even undocked for botting just because of the alliance they are in.
Nah, those guys are just utter assholes. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
87
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Posted - 2011.12.22 20:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Xolve wrote: I guess first I'd have to question how Dotlan parses system jumps, primarily, does it parse people that arrive via jump bridge.
It's whatever the API reports. All hail the API. Even if it is a little vague about what defines a jump.
Xolve wrote: Then you'd have to take into account if that system has a station in it, or a friendly pos for the denizens of that system (which im sure it does) depending on the true sec of the system, with an outpost, its entirely possible that players dont leave that system, as most tend to rat where the can at least have an in system outpost/station to run back to and either drop off loot, or buy more ammo.
700 NPC Kills in 24 hours is about 20 Havens/Sanctums. Each taking a tengu about 30 minutes to complete.. Given that, i'm sure you'd find this more then reasonable.
Remember there's asteroid belts, too. Estimating 5 rats per belt, that's 700 / 5 / 23 = 6 belts per hour on average. 10 minutes to complete a belt is rather reasonable. Combine that with any Havens/Sanctums in the system and you've got a bearing system that is being used to its full potential, the low number of jumps seems suspicious for how much it's being used, but as Xolve said, stations and JBs might count into it.
If they don't, then head over to that system in a PvP ship and see how many of these "bear all day" people you can kill. They can't all be bots  |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
87
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 21:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:In regards to the system in Pure Blind - 9 Jumps and 686 NPC kills in 24 hours.
No Stations and a system rating of -0.08
The system in Fountain 21 Jumps / 1486 NPC kills in 24 hours
No Station and a system rating of -0.22
Again I am not accusing anyone of doing anything, however would you say that if CCP are serious about clamping down on botters, would these kind of numbers warrant investigation?
Eeww -0.08.
Don't anomaly spawns depend on system upgrades, though? But yes, those do sound suspicious. Check there for bots -> report them -> have fuzzy feelings about improving Eve for everyone. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
87
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Posted - 2011.12.22 21:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oh and don't brag. If you report a bot don't go around saying "PETRUS BLACKSHELL WAS TOTES USING A BOT AND I REPORTED HIM LOLOL SERVES THE ******* RIGHT".
Avoid the drama. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
87
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Posted - 2011.12.22 21:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Beaches wrote: Please lurk before posting, you are a ******* disease GTFO
Confirming Ladie Harlot is the cancer that is killing the Eve Forums. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
89
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Posted - 2011.12.22 22:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yup. Frankly, part of the issue is apparently that people don't take reporting seriously enough. Flooding CCP with reports hampers them as much as nobody reporting does. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
89
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Posted - 2011.12.22 22:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xolve wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Funny you run your mouth about how I'm not on "other forums", but you can go to those other forums and read all about who bots and who doesn't, and even buy ISK.
You should be a "journalist" for Fox News. Yep I have access to forums that in turn, have access to alliance financials; I should most certainly be punished and subject to immediate scorn for aligning myself with an online organization that wants transparency with its members. I don't give a **** about botters, I don't care who RMT's... Honestly with the amount of effort you plebes put into this tin foil hattery, you could potentially realize there are better things to do then worry about what people are doing in areas of the game your afraid to step foot into. Your as bad as that old ***** down the street- who sits around all day and counts how many times everyone in the neighborhood pisses, eats and fucks.
You sound mad. You mad?
Confirming all of us are afraid to step into 0.0 and that's why we ***** about game abuse that affects everyone regardless of location. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
89
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Posted - 2011.12.22 22:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Xolve wrote: I was speaking directly to Cipher Jones.
Oh okay
/retract trolling |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
93
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Posted - 2011.12.23 00:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote::please don your tin foil hats before proceeding further:
Is there any proof that "report bot" has been used by CCP as more than a "feel good feature" for legitmate players? Have there been any bots banned by CCP after having been reported using that tool?
As far as I know, CCP won't release any information along those lines. If they won't do that, then it is impossible to determine if the "report bot" feature is even valid. It may be that CCP put it there with no intention of ever using it beyond it fooling the gullible into thinking it is a legitimate way to get CCP to take action. Outside of CCP stepping in and showing proof, not just a dev post saying "yes we do", the community is left in the dark about it. As a result, speculation, accusation, and treachery will abound.
Come to think of it, how do we know the botters aren't CCP-controlled to artificially raise PLEX prices so more people will want to buy PLEX with real money so they can raise profits?
Oh god! That matches up perfectly with your hypothesis!
I'm scared. |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
96
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Posted - 2011.12.23 23:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:There is no way to truly know which alliances, nullsec or otherwise, actually police and kick members for botting. What we do know are which alliances bot and allow their members to do so... *coughttestgoonswarmcough* Sorry. I don't want to point them out. I hate finger pointing. 
You mean virtually all of them, by the sounds of this thread? |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
96
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Posted - 2011.12.24 04:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Podcorn wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote: we are "harboring botters"
No one needs direct evidence, it's the goon's policy to not report bots, to look the other way. You hide goon bots among your other carebears then you say "It's CCP's job to try and find them" That is harboring bots. I understand that goons want to destroy the game, (do they not?) And yes, that's a good way to do that. Congradulations  . But what I don't understand is why the CCP employees that are in the goons (... are they not?...) Don't say anything about this.
I don't believe that people in Goonswarm seriously go all "Hey guys, I'll be back later. If you see my Tengu flying around, just ignore it." That is just asking for trouble. My guess is that most people can't even identify a bot in Goonswarm, even though they live around those bots every day. That is only exacerbated by the really large number of members.
Mr Kidd wrote:"Don't report bots" policies only do one thing, encourage botting. The reasons given for such policies as to prevent people from rage-reporting innocent people just doesn't hold water. Firstly, how is the alliance ever going to know who reported who unless CCP is sending that information back to the alliance. Secondly, a "Don't falsely report people as botters" policy doesn't directly encourage botting and is still just as enforceable as the policies as stated.
The reason this becomes an issue is because the reporter/whistleblower/****** goes and does something stupid, like saying "You were just reported for botting, congratulations" in local, or goes into corp chat (or other favorite chat channel) and starts bragging.
The problem here is that the reporter always has plausible deniability. "I really thought he was a bot!" is a really end-all argument, which can only be overriden by overwhelming evidence that the reporter is actually just abusing bot-reporting. With a massive alliance full of like Goonswarm, that becomes unmanageable.
|

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
96
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Posted - 2011.12.24 04:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lady Harlot wrote:It's CCP's rule and it's their job to enforce it. This is not a difficult concept.
Suppose you are shopping at a department store at your favorite mall with some friends. The mall has been having a shoplifting problem recently, and has big posters everywhere saying "Shoplifting harms all of us -- please inform a security officer if you see anything suspicious." You then notice that one of your friends just surreptitiously slipped an item into his pocket. The officers did not notice.
Do you just keep quiet to "avoid drama"? It is indeed the officers' jobs to catch this shoplifting, but would you allow it to happen? |

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
96
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 06:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote: I like shoplifters. Everybody paying for things makes for long lines and I hate waiting in line.
Eve Forums -- making me lose faith in the human race since 2009. |
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